Growing global - plotting the right path for international growth

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Hello and

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welcome to this edition of the
C-speak podcast.

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Inspired by
Seaspeak, the official language of the seas

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that provides clear communications
amongst ship captains.

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We bring together
Forvis Mazars experts to discuss

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the big strategic challenges
facing business leaders today.

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I'm your host, Gareth
Jones, Partner and Global

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Head of privately owned business
at Forvis Mazars.

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So today we'll be discussing
the complexity and barriers

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faced by businesses.

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When looking to expand internationally

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and how businesses can do this
with confidence.

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I'm really excited to welcome our panel
of experts from Forvis Mazars.

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We have Helen Parker who leads our Strategy and
Consulting Services team,

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specialising in business transformation.

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Catherine Hall, a partner
in our International Tax and Global Compliance

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team, and Lara Brennan, partner
in our Accounting and Outsourcing team.

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So what's the topic?

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The recent Forvis Mazars report,
C-suite Barometer, revealed growing business

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growing your business globally
is a top priority for UK business leaders,

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but around
24% said they were looking to expand

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internationally in 2024.

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Of course, there are several reasons why
international expansion is on the agenda

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increasing market share,

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exploring efficiencies or looking for
better ways of doing business.

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But we know the path doesn't
always run smoothly.

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So today we'll discuss
some of the drivers, some of the pitfalls

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and things to look out for.

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So let's get started.

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So my first question is what do we mean

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by growing or expanding internationally?

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I'll come to you first, Helen.

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Thanks, Gareth.

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Yes, when we
we support a lot of clients in, exploring,

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international, and move internationally.

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Sometimes that can be something
as simple as just starting

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to export your products
to a different market.

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It could be joining up with agents
or local partners

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in other markets
so that they sell, your goods for you.

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Or it could be, a much bigger step,
and probably a more risky step,

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in terms of setting up operations abroad,

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or a further step to actually setting up
a statutory legal entity abroad.

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And all these come with,
different benefits or different risks.

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I think it's important to understand
the context

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that when we talk about international,
we're covering all of these aspects.

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Thanks, Helen.

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Catherine or Lara, do you want to jump in there before
we get onto the first question?

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Yeah.

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I guess just to to add to what Helen said,

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there
might be a bit of a different journey

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as well for each business in terms
of how how they expand.

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They might start with one, a move,
move on to another, and the tipping point

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can vary very much depending on the market
you're operating in,

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the type of business you're operating in.

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Particularly when you're looking at goods
versus services.

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For example,

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whether you're putting

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employees on the ground
or whether you are able

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to just to

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access new markets for the provision
of provision of your goods and services

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so that, you know, each journey does
look a little bit different, but,

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and each bit comes
with different levels of complexity.

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And Lara. 
I think there's a lot of businesses

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that just want to exploit
the opportunities globally.

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So for example, you know,
that can be lower production costs.

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and there's some talent acquisition
perspective.

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You know, you can tap into a more diverse
talent pool, so that the, you know,

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more innovation in that region,
there's access to different technologies.

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Okay.

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So if we think about growing in size,
what are the drivers

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behind businesses wanting to do this?

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you know, and especially given the current
economic climate.

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Yeah.

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I think as Lara said,
there can be various,

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reasons as to why
you may want to internationalise.

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I think it's really important that whilst

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there might appear to be a demand
for your products or your services,

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so you may have identified
that there's a gap in the market.

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I think what's really important
is doing that thorough analysis

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and really ascertaining
whether there's a market in that gap.

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and, you know, there'll be very different,

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sort of cost base
when you're talking about

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other countries that could be, as Lara
said, different sort of labour costs.

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They could be, you know, reduced
or actually in some cases,

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they could be increased.

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And it's really about making sure
that the reason you are

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internationalising
is for the right reasons.

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And you've really done that
thorough market and competitor analysis

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to understand what, you know,
the sort of income and profit levels

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that you could be achieving,
but then really making sure,

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that you cover your costs and how
that cost base could be different.

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You know, everything from labour costs
to logistics and supply chain.

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and it's certainly not ignoring
the additional management time

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that's going to be
needed, in order to set up,

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you know,
whatever the operations might be.

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so, yeah, I think it's important
to make sure that you're doing it

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for the right reasons, that the benefits
or the net benefits are there.

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And you can only do that through really
thorough market and competitor analysis

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and making sure that you're doing it
for the right strategic reasons.

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And it links to your longer term strategy
and that you're not just

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being opportunistic, that you've spotted
a potential gap in the market.

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And I think just to add to what
Helen was saying in terms of that kind of cost

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benefit analysis
overlaying the tax aspects of it

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and not just in terms of those
for the business

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from a corporate income
tax perspective, sales or local tax

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around the provision of services,
for example, but also looking at,

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costs of employing the whole costs,
employing people or having consultants

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on the ground.

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For example, will you have additional

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reporting requirements
as an employer on the ground,

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even if you don't have your own,
your full, fully fledged entity,

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will they be withholding taxes to,
to factor into that cost base?

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And looking at it
holistically, is really important.

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And whilst we would never say looking for
tax efficiency should be the main driver,

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that that strategic part is really,
really important actually.

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Can you look at locations and markets
that overlay where you might be able

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to actually build tax efficiency
into your supply chain?

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So, sort of taking it, taking an advantage
there where the business need

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and the tax align, which
is one thing to think about.

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I think, Helen,
you just covered sort of strategy.

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And Catherine
spoke a little bit about sort of tax

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structure as well in efficiencies.

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But may I just add,

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it's around navigating global compliance.

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You really need to understand
the global compliance because it's tricky.

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the regulatory landscape in each country
totally differs.

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and you've got to understand that
country by country where you operate,

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because it is actually really different

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when you've got sales tax nexus in the US,
which completely vary by state.

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You got things like E-Invoicing,
which should be mandated in the EU, but

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in, in different, in different countries
adopting at different times.

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So really for me it's about understanding
the localisation process as well.

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in terms of global compliance,
it's to ensure

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that you're sort of successfully able
to expand internationally.

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So, you know, if those are the drivers,
you know, what what are therefore

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the the, the keys to really successful
international expansion.

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in some of the next steps,
I'll come to you, Helen.

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I think it's that thorough analysis
at the beginning,

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you know, certainly since, Brexit,
we've had a lot of clients

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come to us saying that
they want to set up operations in Europe.

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And that whilst and as Lara said,
each country can come with very specific

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and, you know, benefits
and also risks and requirements.

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what we typically do
is supporting our clients

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with some form of options analysis.

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So setting out what are your strategic,

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so long term goals,

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what should that

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sort of strategic criteria
be that we're assessing each option

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against probably throwing in there some,

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some operational, goals and as well
and then really assessing a

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number of countries against those criteria
to then come up with a shortlist.

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So we typically look at, say
five countries filter

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that down to three countries.

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And then you know,

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so keep assessing them to
then come up with the favoured country.

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And actually as you start to look at all
those different criteria, each country,

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even within
the EU, has very, very different,

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costs and benefits.

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you know, everything
from sort of regulatory,

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right through to sort of cultural,
logistics

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and transport obviously being a key,
a key, sort of cost driver as well.

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and then I think

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going through that thorough, robust
analysis,

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you will have the most informed
strategic decision.

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Then, and it's really important
just to assess that you,

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like I said at the beginning, that there's
not just that gap in the market

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you've identified, but you've you're able
to really prove that you can do this

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profitably,
with the resources that you've got both,

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you know, money,
but also in terms of management time,

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and really making sure that before
you press the button,

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you've done
you've gone through that robust process.

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and I think, you know,
that mapping of the strategy

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is, is really, really important
from a tax perspective as well.

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But the complexity comes when you're
mapping that against a changing

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tax landscape.

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You know, we know the tax changes
all the time.

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we've had a lot of initiatives
around, global compliance,

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with the OECD pushing for a standard
minimum, taxes, for example.

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But equally, each time
there is a change in country

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mapping, your decision against what
that might look like becomes more complex.

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and so knowing what's required

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for identifying the right tax
structure for your business upfront,

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but building in flex to allow change
where those, those environments

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change in the regulations
change is also really, really important.

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And it can actually be business critical.

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so it's complex,
but working with the right partner

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who can help you navigate that
and do that overlay.

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to the piece that Helen was talking about
around that robust

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bringing tax into that, an understanding
is, is really, really important.

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Can I just add to that, Catherine, that,
you know, doing these things

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retrospectively is always really,
really difficult.

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The key to success is being proactive.

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And actually, whilst
you're mapping out, actually spending time

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with an advisor that can help you grow

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globally will actually save you
a lot of time and money,

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because it's such a lengthy process
to try and understand

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all of the different moving parts
on a different country by country basis.

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You need expert advice to help you
and hold your hand so that you can get to

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that point a lot quicker
and in a more cost effective way.

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So we've looked at those key areas,
but clearly there must be challenges

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and pitfalls.

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so so how can a business plan and I guess
prepare for international expansion

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and sort of give it their best shot
first time?

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I'll come to you, Catherine. Maybe first.

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Thanks. Thanks, Gareth.

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I think, just leading on for what
we just talked about understanding

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the local markets is really key
and what those requirements might mean

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for you on the ground
in terms of cost and resources.

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So for example,
there's an increase in requirement

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for to have substance on the ground
generally,

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with some countries in the Asia-Pacific
region, for example, requiring you to have

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a local director sitting on the board
as well as an established office.

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So understanding that up front helps
you as you're making that plan,

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and you're looking at
that analysis is to the, to the market,

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how you want to enter, strategically,

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I think, you know, you have to
look at the whole gamut across tax.

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It's not just the corporate income tax,
but what the business

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is going to be paying on profits
this is generating in country.

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You have to look at the cost
of moving people.

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So existing people

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you may have, you may want to put in
to help you build the business locally.

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What's that going to mean for you
in terms of tax exposure and tax costs?

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The business,

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looking at

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things like immigration
and transfer pricing.

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So is more in the more environment
you're operating in, the more complexity

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you bring into your business,
the more requirement

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there is just to document and,
give yourself the best possible position

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looking at efficiency, but also making
sure you're meeting local requirements

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for compliance and reporting
and understanding when those will kick in.

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and looking at state and local taxes
as well as any incentives.

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So we have an R&D and innovation
regime in the UK.

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There are similar regimes
in a lot of other jurisdictions.

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Are there other types of innovation

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or incentives that you could be looking to
to take advantage of in-country?

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And all of that becomes really,
really important to understand.

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And working, as Lara says, working
with the right partner who can help you

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as these things change.

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So giving you the oversight
and the governance, as a business,

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you know, that you're running the business
to be able to kind of flex and adapt

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as those things change,
but also make those decisions

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that really clear decisions upfront
before you go into a new market.

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And the best way to go into the market,
will just help it all

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as a success.

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Yeah, I actually I agree with Catherine,
which is good.

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Catherine.

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I would also go for adaptability
and flexibility,

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but maybe from a slightly different lens.

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you know, when we talk about
and taking your products or services

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to other countries,
you will probably have to adapt those

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for whatever the, you know,
local customer needs.

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Or you may have to adapt to your value
proposition and,

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and your marketing strategies to suit
the preferences of the local market.

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I think it's being prepared,
to make those changes and to be flexible.

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You know, we worked with, one company
where,

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the requirements of the EU meant
that they had to change their labelling.

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And actually,
from a perspective of production,

00:14:20:00 - 00:14:22:19
that was actually quite a big impact
to them,

00:14:22:19 - 00:14:24:12
to implement those new processes.

00:14:24:12 - 00:14:28:05
But how the new the labels
would be printed in the different batches

00:14:28:05 - 00:14:31:00
and how they would
then be stored and such like

00:14:32:01 - 00:14:35:01
and we've also worked with the company
where, you know, that key

00:14:35:01 - 00:14:39:13
USP or value proposition was around
free postage and packaging.

00:14:39:18 - 00:14:42:00
Well, now they were going,
you know, into Europe.

00:14:42:00 - 00:14:45:16
They weren't able to they wouldn't
have been able to profitably do that.

00:14:45:22 - 00:14:50:02
So that then then, you know, slight
change to what their value proposition is.

00:14:50:06 - 00:14:51:03
We have the decision.

00:14:51:03 - 00:14:53:20
Do we change what our value proposition
is just in one country,

00:14:53:20 - 00:14:56:08
or do we review
what our overall value proposition is?

00:14:56:08 - 00:15:00:15
So I think it's being prepared to flex
what you're offering.

00:15:00:15 - 00:15:04:23
It's flex
what your marketing and branding, does

00:15:04:23 - 00:15:08:09
so that it addresses,
you know, your target audience.

00:15:09:08 - 00:15:12:10
but also trying to do that
and being consistent with your overall

00:15:12:10 - 00:15:13:09
brand identity.

00:15:13:09 - 00:15:16:08
I don't think those bits
can be underestimated.

00:15:16:08 - 00:15:17:22
and it can be quite complex.

00:15:17:22 - 00:15:21:04
I think tackling that,
as soon as possible is an important part

00:15:21:04 - 00:15:24:04
of that overall sort of assessment
of whether there's that,

00:15:24:11 - 00:15:26:21
gap in the market and market in the gap.

00:15:26:21 - 00:15:27:02
Okay.

00:15:27:02 - 00:15:29:12
So I want to come to my final question.

00:15:29:12 - 00:15:30:06
so it seems, you know,

00:15:30:06 - 00:15:33:14
international expansion
is firmly on the agenda of UK businesses.

00:15:34:00 - 00:15:35:22
so I guess before we go,

00:15:35:22 - 00:15:38:10
have you got a top tip
you can give our listeners,

00:15:38:10 - 00:15:41:10
about when they're looking
to grow their business internationally?

00:15:41:17 - 00:15:43:22
I'll come to Catherine first.

00:15:45:20 - 00:15:46:10
I think I would

00:15:46:10 - 00:15:49:15
say plan, but don't let tax drive it.

00:15:49:16 - 00:15:51:22
Don't forget tax
but don't let tax drive it.

00:15:51:22 - 00:15:54:05
So overlay tax
with your business strategy.

00:15:54:05 - 00:15:57:09
So all the things that Helen’s
been talking about are super important and the

00:15:57:09 - 00:15:58:14
the main driver.

00:15:58:14 - 00:16:01:03
But just don't forget it.
Tax on your cost.

00:16:01:03 - 00:16:04:10
and work with someone
who can help you navigate that

00:16:04:10 - 00:16:08:01
changing landscape so that you can build
that flexibility into your business.

00:16:08:16 - 00:16:13:12
For me, I would say really work
with a partner that understands

00:16:14:08 - 00:16:19:08
the accounting requirements
in each country.

00:16:19:08 - 00:16:22:08
They really do differ. As I said before,

00:16:22:16 - 00:16:26:14
you need a partner that can actually help
you set up your systems and processes

00:16:26:14 - 00:16:30:18
to make sure that you are reporting
in line with those country requirements.

00:16:31:02 - 00:16:34:14
And there's a lot of technology out there
that can automate a lot of this.

00:16:34:23 - 00:16:38:11
So it's really useful to understand,
you know, what is available

00:16:38:11 - 00:16:39:20
before you start to trade.

00:16:40:22 - 00:16:42:10
because as I said previously,

00:16:42:10 - 00:16:45:20
it can be very, very expensive
to to go backwards.

00:16:46:22 - 00:16:49:01
And Helen,

00:16:49:01 - 00:16:52:01
probably not too surprising for me.

00:16:52:08 - 00:16:54:17
but I'd say that planning piece.

00:16:54:17 - 00:16:57:17
So I think, you know, making sure
that you put the time in,

00:16:58:20 - 00:17:03:01
to understand whether this is
the right move, for the business,

00:17:03:21 - 00:17:07:22
and really understanding
that this is going to quite fundamentally

00:17:07:23 - 00:17:13:04
change your risk profiles and therefore
making sure that's integrated

00:17:13:04 - 00:17:17:16
into your overall risk management,
sort of ecosystem or processes.

00:17:18:18 - 00:17:20:13
and ultimately,
if you've done that planning,

00:17:20:13 - 00:17:23:07
if you've done that risk management.

00:17:23:07 - 00:17:24:18
it's also about being patient.

00:17:24:18 - 00:17:27:19
I'd say, you know, international expansion
isn't something

00:17:27:19 - 00:17:29:08
that you can just do tomorrow.

00:17:29:08 - 00:17:30:14
It does take time.

00:17:30:14 - 00:17:31:18
It takes effort.

00:17:31:18 - 00:17:34:13
It takes a lot of management time.

00:17:34:13 - 00:17:37:14
you know, they'll need to be on the ground
building if relationships,

00:17:37:15 - 00:17:41:22
establishing your presence,
lots of changes as we talked about.

00:17:41:22 - 00:17:43:09
Maybe that's flexing your project

00:17:43:09 - 00:17:46:17
to your services
or your branding or your marketing.

00:17:47:10 - 00:17:52:11
and it's really about setting yourself
realistic targets and realistic KPIs

00:17:52:18 - 00:17:56:12
so that you can measure that success of
at the international expansion as you move

00:17:56:12 - 00:17:57:23
through the journey.

00:17:57:23 - 00:18:00:07
but, you know,
getting that up front planning

00:18:00:07 - 00:18:03:08
is absolutely critical
to be paid to do any of those steps.

00:18:03:23 - 00:18:04:18
Thank you.

00:18:04:18 - 00:18:08:11
Well, that brings us to the end of this
episode of the C-speak podcast

00:18:08:11 - 00:18:09:20
by Forvis Mazars.

00:18:09:20 - 00:18:11:10
Thanks, to our guests

00:18:11:10 - 00:18:14:10
for joining us and sharing their insights
and thank you for listening.

00:18:14:19 - 00:18:17:19
We hope this podcast has helped
you navigate what lies ahead.

00:18:18:10 - 00:18:21:11
Do look out for more growing
global insights that we'll be sharing

00:18:21:11 - 00:18:23:02
over the next few months.

00:18:23:02 - 00:18:26:04
And if you enjoy our show, please
subscribe on Apple Podcasts

00:18:26:04 - 00:18:29:04
or Spotify and be sure to come back
for our discussion.

00:18:29:06 - 00:18:32:05
Until then, I'm
Gareth Jones from Forvis Mazars.